Women really are just for breeding. Even fictional media says so.

[meridian_rose]

Tumblr is filled with 'Hunger Games' gifs and macros and spoilers and the media is filled with reviews and book/movie comparisons. Some of the conclusions are 'crappy Battle Royale ripoff' and others decide 'OMG BEST BOOK AND/OR MOVIE EVER'. As always I suspect the truth is somewhere inbetween.

I was even thinking about making an effort to try and the read the books and maybe later see the movies due to the hype. Then I saw this post on Tumblr in which an anon said 'The epilogue was SO important to the entire story. It showed that SHE HAD CHILDREN. That she felt safe with Peeta'.
The respondent says 'I never even once read Katniss not wanting kids as being too scared to have them. I read it as her not wanting kids. Also you may recall in the one page shitty excuse for an epilogue that Katniss said she did it for Peeta, not because she wanted them because “he wanted them so badly” once she was pregnant and felt the child kicking her she decided she liked the idea of having kids but not till then. It was nothing to do with her feeling safe, it was Peeta wanting to be a father.'

So fuck you, Collins. Is this the fate of all female fantasy writers [see also Rowling], to write crappy epilogues to their stories that force otherwise outside-the-norm females into monogamous heterosexual marriages and to become mothers? Are they bowing to publisher pressure or they can honestly not just imagine that there are women out there who do not want children under any circumstances?

What's even worse here than in the 'Harry Potter' piece of shit ending is that at least one of the two readers sees Katniss as childfree but she gives in to please 'her man'. That she gives up her bodily autonomy and commits to a lifelong role of motherhood because he wants to be a father. Great message to send to the teens these books are mostly aimed at! Remember, you must please your male partner at all costs and give into sex and reproduction whenever he desires it.

So that's another book series I'm reluctant to read which is a pity because I think I'd have rather liked Katniss [also maybe Gale and Fennick?] until the Shitty Epilogue of Doom just as I was rather enjoying 'Harry Potter' until the cis-heternomative-childed-monogamy-for-all-important-characters epilogue.


I'm also falling out of love with 'Castle' because, while the episodes are still pretty good, Stana Katnic, who portrays Beckett, can think of nothing more interesting or important for her character's future than to 'make babies' with Castle. I usually blame the [mostly male] writers for having nothing better to do with a female character than make her pregnant but now female actors can't think of anything else they'd like to happen?

I want to write fanfic where Castle, who in canon already has a teenage daughter he raised pretty much on his own, tells Beckett he's had a vasectomy and/or does not want to start having babies again at his age [he's older than Beckett]. But I'd probably get no readers for such a fic because the Castle fandom seems to be 90% 'Beckett and Castle need to get married and have lots of babies' and 9.9% 'Ryan/Esposito slash because men can't ever just be close friends'.

On a similar note I'm glad I quit watching 'Bones' before childfree Temperance went batshit for asshole Booth's sperm.

Add this to reasons I find it hard to relate to a lot of female characters. Even the canonically childfree ones, including the lesbian childfree [Arizona, Grey's Anatomy] give in eventually. Even Cara [Legend of the Seeker] had to be given a shoehorned back-story son.

So, here's the thing. In the outside of realms of possibility I ever get published I swear that I'll never write shitty epilogues where everyone is forced into heterosexual couples who breed like rabbits. If I have a childfree protagonist she'll remain that way. There will be gay/lesbian couples. There will be threesomes and open relationships and the happily unattached. There will be adopted children. And my commitment to these things are probably just one more reason I'd never find a publisher in the first place because there's this obsession with pretending that m+f=biological children is the best and only suitable life path.

Comments

[aldersprig]

Hrrm. I can see + agree with your frustration (I also hate the epilogue, though not quite for the same reasons).

I tend to be writing a lot of pregnancy+big families right now, in part to write out my own frustration (I'm 35, would really like kids, but am not in a financial position to do so right now).

But I can agree with your pledge: I will not write shitty epilogues and will not force pairing where it shouldn't exist.

[meridian_rose]

I admire you for recognising it's not a good time to take on the major responsibility of a child. I also love that you're willing to pledge against shitty epilogues:D I also appreciate how you play with gender and gender roles and sexuality, particularly in the Dragons Next Door and the pronouns discussions.

What especially gets me about these novels is that they're written by women for a teen audience and what message that is sending. I don't even get why they include these shitty epilogues that are hated by large portions of the audience. Why not just leave things open so the audience can imagine their own endings.

[aldersprig]

I'm glad you enjoy what I'm writing!

What I can say abut teen audiences: when I was a teenager, my friend Bibbit & I roleplayed constantly. And we ended every roleplay when we got bored with it with an epilogue much like JK Rowling's.

Bibbit had two kids before I got out of college... don't know what that says, if anything.

[aldersprig]

May I quote you in my journal? (Attributed, of course)

[meridian_rose]

Absolutely. Thanks for asking.

[mfirefly10.livejournal.com]

I still love The Hunger Games as a series but I basically ignore the epilogue. I'm actually fine with Katniss marrying Peeta because I don't see that as OOC for her but the kids thing...she DIDN'T want them. She looked at the way the world worked and DID NOT WANT to bring children into it...until the last page where she suddenly had a change of heart. It just...I just have to pretend that never happened so I can continue loving the series because otherwise, that moment would ruin it for me. Even more-so than another moment in that last book that also made me rage.

Ugh, stupid Bones...I stopped watching before Brennan became pregnant and I'm SO glad because it just made no sense with the character we were first introduced to. Yes, she debated about having a child before but it was more of a 'how can I deny the world the brilliant person an offspring of mine would clearly be?' than an 'I really want babies, OMG!' kind of thing. And I could believe that from Brennan, even though I still thought the whole thing was ridiculous. I mean...I kinda understand that they didn't have a lot of choices given the actresses real-life pregnancy, but why not say that Brennan was a surrogate for a friend who couldn't get pregnant? That way Emily's pregnancy could've been worked in without giving kids to a woman who really never wanted them.

I was SO happy when Grey's did the storyline with Arizona not wanting kids...and then they backed out of it to give Callie/Arizona a happy ending. At least they have kept Cristina happily baby-free, though this current storyline where her husband treats her like shit because she had an abortion MAKES ME WANT TO PUNCH THINGS.

I just...I still can't get over society's belief that every single woman in the history of the world wants kids. Not true and it needs to be reflected more in the media as a perfectly valid and acceptable choice that doesn't mean there is something physically or mentally wrong with the woman in question.

[meridian_rose]

I suppose forewarned is forearmed and I could just stop reading before the epilogue of doom. I wish I'd known that about Harry Potter D:

And there are other ways of hiding a pregnancy, including sending a character off on a sabbatical and focussing on other characters for a few episodes. I got the impression the baby storyline started even before the actress got pregnant but I can't be sure. Not to mention the 'my special genes' argument always rubs me up the wrong way. It's nature plus nurture. And look at her brother; hardly a fricking genius scientist and he had the exact same parents, while she's choosing shallow jock Booth for a baby daddy so the genetic lottery isn't even being loaded in the kid's favour.

I had to stop watching Grey's when Callie got pregnant. I intend to watch the AU episode that aired this week, because I love the premise. But every other trailer I see makes me want to punch Owen in the face.

I feel it's still, ridiculously, a controversial thing to say 'I don't want kids, other people don't want kids, stop making every single female character who isn't evil want kids'. I'm rather relieved to get a supportive comment :D So, thank you.

[pristineungift.livejournal.com]

I think I have less omg why children rage, because I do like kids and want kids, so I can relate to wanting kids, but it still bothers me that it seems to be the fate of every female character because I have a lot of friends who -don't- want kids and good for them, that's fine, it means I'll have someone I can pay to babysit without worrying if our kids get along!

I actually was having a lot of rage about how women are treated in media yesterday, because with my internet down, I've been playing a lot of video games, and I noticed something I hadn't before. I was on a level where you have to answer riddles, and the answers were like 'love' 'jealousy' 'greed' etc - Well on all the riddles with a negative answer like 'sin' - one of the potential answers you could give was 'woman.'

Now, it's worth mentioning that 'woman' wasn't the CORRECT answer to any of the negative riddles and you had to fight a monster if you selected it, but it just made me mad that for every riddle that was something like "I destroy man from within, what am I?" one of the potential answers was 'woman' and 'man' wasn't a potential answer to ANYTHING. Man could have at least been a potential answer to the riddles where the answer was 'war' or 'pride' since woman was a potential answer for 'sin', 'jealousy', and 'betrayal'.

ANYWAY, long comment is long, I meant to say that if you would like to read some fantasy stories about women who don't want kids, or if they have kids aren't really comfortable with motherhood, I'd recommend Tamora Pierce and Mercedes Lackey. Both of them are very good about portraying the full range of womanhood - there are characters who are 'traditional' women, characters who are anything but, and all kinds in between. Tamora Pierce in particular makes a point of emphasizing that traditional women don't have to feel threatened by non-traditional women. Wanting children and a husband doesn't mean you can't be friends with someone who doesn't.

[meridian_rose]

I used to have an icon uploaded of MTV's Daria with her famous quote 'I didn't even like kids when I was a kid' which I can identify with. Daria was subversive and cynical, a real alternative to other animated females, but I wouldn't call Daria mainstream. And while many people rec Lackey and Pierce and I may well read them at some point and enjoy them, I don't think they're truly mainstream either.

Mainstream media is where we're beaten over the head that women are bad, and sinful, or they're angelic mothers or they exist only for a man's pleasure; the virgin/whore dichotomy. It plays out in movies, on tv, and in video games, and it might be more forgivable if it didn't happen all the time. I want mainstream characters who exist outside the norm, and women who aren't evil who don't want children. Women who don't change their minds to please a loved one. Women who stay childfree without resorting to barrenness which requires angsting over.

What especially gets me about these novels is that they're written by women for a teen audience and what message that is sending. I don't even get why they include these shitty epilogues that are hated by large portions of the audience. I've seen the HP ending described as 'bad fanfic' which to me it is, where everyone couples off and has babies named after all their friends. Why not just leave things open so the audience can imagine their own endings. On the other hand I know good fanfic has given us alternative endings and gay characters and slash pairings rather than the token 'Dumbledore was totes gay, I just never mentioned it in canon'. Where mainstream media does fail, fans can subvert the tropes and tell stories where they can recognise themselves and their loved ones. But we shouldn't have to keep subverting mainstream media to find characters we recognise, who are asexual and gay and bisexual and genderqueer and polyamourous and childfree and atheist and all the other 'abnormal' qualities we embody.

[pristineungift.livejournal.com]

<_< Not really sure where all of this came from because I thought I was agreeing with you? I completely meant to be agreeing with you, and just point you in the direction of some books that might make you less angry because they -do- have canon characters who embody more than cis-male/female relationship, that's all.

[meridian_rose]

Oh, I appreciate the rec (although I worry that these books get rec'd so often they'll never meet my expectations for them now!) It's more that any 'here, this is better' rec always falls outside of the mainstream, such as niche fantasy, rather than major motion pictures or prime time tv. And I apologise, I was mostly still blowing off steam. You can't control what the media does. And I wouldn't expect you to write craptastic 'fifteen years later' epilogues any more than I'd expect all your characters to be heterosexual :D

[brontefanatic.livejournal.com]

I just finished the first book of the Hunger Games and loved it, and I loved the female protagonist. I'm going to see the movie next Friday.

I didn't even know there was an epilogue. Now I'm not sure I want to read the rest of them. *sigh*

[meridian_rose]

Perhaps you can avoid the epilogue at the end of the last book. I wish I'd known about the HP one and done the same. I was getting excited about reading the books first - I bet there'll be a lot of copies read now there's a movie, which end up in charity stores afterwards, so it shouldn't be hard for me find one shortly. Katniss looks amazing in the trailers/gifs I've seen and it sounds like I'd enjoy reading about her and identify with her not wanting kids - which would even more of a slap in the face later.

[brontefanatic.livejournal.com]

Lisa - I just came across this blog/diary on the internet pertaining to this subject and thought you would be interested:

Childless by Choice

Read the comments below the diary if you have the time - they are very interesting and very supportive.

[meridian_rose]

Thanks, that's a great article and it makes a change for the comments for be so supportive :D Bookmarked for future reference. Comments from some other introverts who never liked being around kids when they were young either, which interested me.

[meridian_rose]

I'd not heard of Cherryh. I've just read a couple of articles on Wiki about her and the novel themes and she might be someone I'd read and enjoy :D

On the other hand, Tully and Sandor being mentioned as characters made me think about 'Game of Thrones'; again we have 'niche fantasy' vs 'mainstream' where GoT gets a major television series while Lackey, Cherryh, and others works do not. I wonder about works being chosen to be adapted for the small/big screen and how their treatment of gender roles affects it, and how it might play into getting published in the first place.

But I still think there was no end for the epilogues since they took place once the writers were established and under less pressure to 'conform'. I could understand a movie having a tacky ending pasted on in some vague attempt to 'please the audience' but not for an author to do so.

[hrhrionastar.livejournal.com]

I'm late, but I just want to say I applaud this post. I've never read/seen The Hunger Games (although what I understand of the premise makes me a little unenthusiastic, actually), but I find the idea that she only had children in order to please her man disturbing. And you know how I feel about the HP epilogue - although for me it's less that our main characters all have children and more that those children are expected to be carbon copies of their namesakes and/or parents, thereby throwing realism and character development out the window.

I think it's important that everyone have the freedom to choose the life they want, whether that includes children or not. Also, it seems very strange that people would encourage women who don't want children to have them, when there's so much overpopulation and poverty in the world.

I've been trying to think of a good series/book/show where the protagonist definitely doesn't want children for you, but it's really unfortunately difficult :(