I watch for the brains and the brawn, not the babies

[meridian_rose]

Introduction

For the purposes of this meta, 'babyfic' is, to me, a subset of the 'family' genre and possibly the 'romance' category, which is another culprit for what I want to talk about it. Babyfic occurs when a female character without children [or, somewhat more rarely, has grown-up children] gets pregnant. This is about why I abhor the majority of babyfic; because most of the time it's done badly, more often and more badly than romance - which is often also incredibly badly handled, especially where the female character is concerned.

I'm going to talk about why it irks me so much, how it's badly handled and also when it is done well [both in canon and fic] with multifandom examples, and why I find that it's overall the worst trope for a female character apart from being 'fridged'.

This isn't what I signed up for, or 'where'd my role model go?', aka 'this is another reason for me to prefer watching men'

Fandomwise, the quickest way to get me to jump ship is turn it into 'babyfic'. If I wanted babyfic I'd watch soaps and Private Practice and wouldn't have finally quit Grey's Anatomy. I watch shows with awesome women doing awesome things - or awesome men doing awesome things, or both - and the moment there's a pregnancy it's all about the fetus and how DANGEROUS everything is, and then it's all about the baby. It doesn't matter if you were the Slayer, now you're a Mother and it's the most Important Job in the World and the Only Thing You Are [vomit].

You don't get it so much with women who are already mothers; they'll often be honest about the highs and lows of parenthood. But apparantly every pregnancy is wanted and usually easy when it happens onscreen, and afterwards the children rarely warrant a mention unless it's to show how wonderful their parents are.

The women I most love are those I identify with, role models, or the women I'd want to friends with. And since babies are not in my future, I find it disappointing when a women I'm identifying with gets pregnant - often without any thought to it [birth control doesn't exist or is incredibly unreliable in media]. Thus I often find myself drawn to male characters over females, because they will never [Jack Harkness aside] get pregnant and spend episode after episode waxing on about their fecundity.

Bad babyfic in canon - a few examples

Teyla in Stargate: Atlantis; I'd have rather just Teyla gone missing with the rest of her people in SGA instead of writing in the actress's pregnancy. Featured a ridiculous sentient Gary Stu fetus that could fly spaceships with it's undeveloped mind; also that it was part wraith or whatever meant it was a constant target for attack by everyone in the galaxy and pretty much too dangerous to live. Teyla's entire last seasons became all about the pregnancy and protecting the Gary Stu, and she rarely got to just go out and kick ass to protect the team. Had she punched Sheppard in the nose for telling her wasn't allowed on the team anymore because of the fetus, she'd have kept my full respect. On her homeworld, she'd still have to have fled from and fought the Wraith, pregnant or not, and Sheppard's paternalistic attitude pissed me off.

Almost everyone from Grey's Anatomy - [see below for the exceptions] Particuarly Mark's obnoxious daughter, Mark and his obnoxiousness about he wanted a baby that ruined his relationship with another woman, Owen Hunt for pressuring his wife to 'grow up' and have a baby with him, and everything to do with Calleigh - the Arizona giving up her childfree identity so easily just so she could continue to date Calleigh not only didn't ring true for most actual childfree people, it contributed to the 'you'll change your mind when you meet the right person' myth. I am a member of a few childfree forums here and elsewhere and when one partner wants a child it's almost always a deal breaker. Way to uphold a socially conservative trope.

Bones - I stopped watching after the Zach debacle but I'd have stopped the moment talk came up about giving Brennan a baby. She was childfree, canonically established. But Booth thinks this is selfish; because nothing says selfless like adding to an overpopulated world, or having a child because you think your genes are superior. Booth's genetics arguement doesn't hold water; Brennan is a genius but her brother isn't [ditto for Big Bang Theory's Sheldon compared to his two siblings]; and her genes are only half the equation unless he's suggesting she clone herself to preserve her knowledge and skills. Far less selfish and more appropriate a legacy would be a scholarship fund to help gifted but poor students achieve the education they desired, and would let her name live on at the same time.

I think Legend of the Seeker would have been this way; they chickened out of killing male confessors twice, and Kahlan wandered round all dreamy eyed whenever the subject of babies came up. The second Kahlan got pregnant Richard was overly concerned for her safety. I'd actually not have wanted to see a third season that was all about the baybeez. the retconning that Cara had a child bothered me - it felt like a throwaway plotline that nonetheless changes who she is. Fanfic writers spend more time developing the theme, that maybe she and Rahl were more closely linked than canon suggested/allowed, and that makes more sense. [I also like to imagine that Mord'Sith don't pay much attention to being pregnant, and still go the taverns and swill ale, have sex, and ageil anyone who gets in their way. Any fetus that survives is worthy of being born, any that doesn't was weak]

Good Babyfic in canon - characters and shows that don't make me rage

Cristina Yang in Grey's Anatomy had an ecpotic pregnancy that wasn't planned and was on the verge of terminating anyway; one of the last episodes I watched however her husband was pressuring her to 'grow up' and have a baby - though this wasn't in her life plan - so she may have caved to his demands. Bailey managed to become mother without losing herself, but she was also upfront about how she'd have terminated the pregnancy if she hadn't wanted it, and how it would affect her career. She worried afterwards that she hadn't been keeping as good an eye on her residents, becoming a bit more distracted and compassionate, but she soon found a balance. Bailey is an all round awesome character, and motherhood is a facet of her life and not her entire identity.

Daenyrys in Game of Thrones is similarly awesome and she didn't exactly have much choice about having sex, using birth control, etc. She's even been using her pregnancy to solidify her power base - though I don't know what will happen in the finale.

Raising Hope gets past my antibaby radar because the pregnancy happens offscreen and it's a show about a single dad and his wacky family and friends than it is about a baby - and while Hope is clearly a source of joy, taking care of her is also shown to be sometimes exhuasting, expensive, boring, and stressful. And I see more effort to include Hope onscreen - being fed, being carried around by/sitting with family members, in her crib - than a lot of other shows who insist on introducing a baby. For an offbeat sitcom there's more truth in it than many dramas where babies are a series of Hallmark/Kodak moments.

Baby without the boring bits in canon

Generally pregnancy is a great way to make the woman an incubator who's major value is that her uterus is occupied and to stop her from doing her usual activities. Finally it seems to sinking in to some writers that this not what some viewers want to see; they tuned in to see ass kicking, world saving, and intergalatic adventures. So in No Ordinary Family and Fringe we had rapidly advancing pregnancies, and in Dr Who the pregnancy happened offscreen while Amy's mind at least was still off having adventures. Dr Who would get bonus points for who the child becomes but I believe it's another case of retcon rather than a plan the writers have been working on for years.

Good babyfic in fanfic

I've come across occasional good family/babyfic, mostly in the LotS fandom. When it remains about the adults, when there is some realism, when the children are allowed to grow up quite quickly and develop personalities, it can be compelling. But too much schmultz turns me off - and this applies to all genres of fic.

Bad babyfic in fanfic

Take your favourite kickass heroine and remove her brains and personality. Make her obsessed with her Man [or occasionally woman] and having Babies. Make sure pregnancy is really easy - unless it's angst and shows how she's willing to die to reproduce - and make sure she has lots of babies. Make sure there are never any emotional or financial difficulties from filling the house up with eight kids named after every other charcter in the show, despite the fact the research shows that couples experience less happiness [and sleep, along with suffering from the obvious financial impact] in the year immediately after having a child. Remember, children are Hallmark moments; yay a baby, and then hide it in its room until it is old enough to cause teenage drama.

For bonus points, take your heroine who is one or several of : over forty, canonically sterile, already has grown up kids, is canonically childfree. For super bonus points set the scene after an apocalypse when there's a lack of food, water, medical care and there's an abundance of orphans who need good homes. Then make your heroine who really ought to be at the forefront of putting society back together, pregnant.

I'm better than you because I'm a parent

For the first half of the season, every episode of Hawaii Five-Oh had Danny pretty much word for word say 'I HAVE A DAUGHTER'. Yes, Danny, we know. Oddly, when his daughter and ex-wife had actually storylines onscreen with him, he stopped mentioning it every five minutes, and being a really good dad but not using it as an excuse for McGarret to slow down when driving. Also, Rachel is a nice kid, with a nice personality and defining characteristics.

Stil, the 'don't hurt me, I'm pregnant/I have kids' trope pisses me off a lot. Your life is not worth more than others just because your reproductive system works. You don't get to reason with a gunman that you are more valuable because you had once had a one night stand and are now a parent. Think about it; who is more valualbe in a life-saving scenario? The man with three kids or the single man without? Easy choice? Well, what if the man with kids is a drug user who beat his wife up so badly he hospitalised her? Or if he walked out on his family and hasn't even seen his kids in three years? What if the single man is working on a vaccine that can save lives? What if he's the sole carer for his elderly mother? Not so easy now?

And given the amount of children who sadly get neglected, abused or even killed by their parents, I call bs on the 'being a parent always makes you a better person' trope.

You're not normal

Okay, it's not just babies that destroy a woman's characterisaton, it can be a man. She's head over heels and now her Calling takes a backseat to Love of Her Life. Richard in Legend of the Seeker is actually more guilty of this than Kahlan, admittedly - Kahlan being firm about putting her Confessor duties first - but LotS has a somewhat different approach to gender roles. Buffy on the other hand was never less effective as the Slayer as when she was in love.


Please, writers, do not give us awesome women in extraordinary circumstances and then turn them into stereotypes of everyday women [again, I'm watching genre tv not soap operas]. Think: what plot lines would a tv writer use as development for a male character? How far down the list is Being a Father? How many other things are on the list? Now, when it comes to character development for a female, how many things are on the list? A lot less, I'm thinking. And Romantic Engagement is probably top of the list, and Motherhood is probably within the top three.

And for the childfree, the infertile childless, the trans-women, the asexuals and aromantics, most lesbians and many bisexuals [in terms of gender of partner chosen by writers] and single people everywhere it's a slap in the face, another reminder that they are not normal. Because every woman has to want and have a husband and a baby.

If you want to be edgy and subversive have abortions happen. Have adoptions happen more frequently. Have genuinely childfree characters who don't change their mind when 'love interest of the week' shows up. Have more stories about people who had a bad relationship with their parents and were raised by their aunts/uncles/older siblings. Or maybe give us a future setting where babies are all grown in petri dishes and explore what that would mean for society. Don't just think 'what can we do to develop this woman's character? I know, give her a baby!'. Because you're not developing her. You're making it about her offspring.

Further Reading

Childfree article at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childfree
Hollywood Pregnancy, the Media & the Childfree: http://technorati.com/entertainment/celebrity/article/hollywood-pregnancy-the-media-the-childfree/
Fact or Fiction: Childfree Couples Are Happier than Couples with Kids : http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/complete-without-kids/201103/fact-or-fiction-childfree-couples-are-happier-couples-kids
Some famous people who didn’t have kids . . . : http://brianhassett.com/2010/06/people-who-dont-have-kids/#more-1058
Bolivia [metaphorical] http://www.fluentself.com/blog/stuff/bolivia/

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Comments

[mrs-jack-turner.livejournal.com]

Teyla's pregnancy sucked so much. She stopped being her amazing kick-ass self and I really stopped liking her.

Grey's is really overdoing babies. Owen isn't good for Cristina as he just doesn't understand her and it hacks me off so much. Bailey can do no wrong in my eyes.

Richard wanting to populate the entire world with his spawn really really got to me in season 2 of LotS. Kahlan was nowhere near as interested as he was and you know he'd have just kept on nagging until they had one.

Dany's storyline is what I'm looking forwards to in Game of Thrones this week :D I finished the first book recently and it's the only bit I can clearly remember that's still to come up.

[meridian_rose]

Thanks so much for commenting. I'm glad I'm not the only one who can see flaws in making kickass females pregnant. I had to stop watching Grey's; I still loved Bailey, and Cristina, and Lexi, but the whole Calleigh storyline just sucked - and Owen's pressuring of Cristina was so uncalled for.

But yes, women can still be amazing and have kids, like Dany. I'm loving watching Game of Thrones :D

[mrs-jack-turner.livejournal.com]

I think I've loved Callie for so long that I have trouble letting her go. I don't mind her being pregnant. She's always wanted kids. What bothered me more was Arizona changing for it and so quickly. I wasn't happy that Cristina and Owen got married. I quite liked them as a pairing at first and now he's thinking more and more that he can tell her what to do.

I think with Dany, it's her "dragon" coming through. The Targaryens were clearly born to be leaders and in Viserys' case it made him crazy that he wasn't king and in Dany's she adapted to what she had and made it work. I'm so glad they've changed the ages of the kids and her though in the show because at this stage Dany's only supposed to be 14.

[meridian_rose]

I'm glad about the age thing too, something I wasn't aware of. It might make sense in terms of the society they live in, where the average lifespan is probably half what we'd expect in our world, but it would make incredibly uncomfortable viewing to have cast such a young actress.

[mrs-jack-turner.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I found it uncomfortable when I read the book. Since I'd started on the show first I just tend to imagine them (Jon and Robb are only supposed to be 15-16) at the age they are in it instead.

[brontefanatic.livejournal.com]

I could go on and on and on about this subject. I'm not familiar with several of the shows you mentioned, but it almost doesn't matter since the baby obsession is so pervasive on television.

Just as tiresome, maybe even more so, is when you are subjected to watching a female character you love start sliding into the pit of brooding that she has to have a child before she can be a "real woman"(sadly, the writers usually think she does). The "why can't I have a baby"? angst is almost as bad as the pregnancy/baby plot. Usually the "Why can't I have a baby" turmoil ends up with a pregnancy, so we get to have it all @_@.

I loved the early years of the "X-Files", but hated the whole Scully angsting over whether she could ever be a mom. Once she became pregnant, Scully was pretty much neutered as an interesting character. She stopped being interesting because she just didn't do anything. So the answer - get rid of William. Yeah - that was a good plan. Why did she ever have to have him in the first place.

"ER" used to be a favorite show - then every single female Dr. and nurse had to have a baby. It was literally mandatory. Off-hand I can't think of a female character in that series who didn't go through a pregnancy, or pregnancy angst (usually both).

"House" - Good Lord, Cuddy was dysfunctional enough, who on earth could think that having her raise a child was a good idea.

What I've noticed is that the most shows jump the shark once they start pushing the pregnancy button too hard and too often. The writers end up sabatoging the characters that the audience loved and people stop watching.

At this point, once the baby angst starts, I stop watching.

(I just read through my post and realized how cold I sound. Yikes!! BTBH - this has bothered me for years and I don't often find someone who feels the same way.)

Note: I can't wait to get your reaction after the next episode of GoT! (Book - fan here.)

[meridian_rose]

I think this is a real danger and it stops more women speaking out, that we'll be called out as cold, unnatural, lacking compassion. It's a relief to have any support for views like mine :D

The 'real woman' thing really does piss me off, as does the 'a baby makes you a grown up' and other such reactions.

Oh, Scully, yes, I'd forgotten about her and I think I'd given up on er and House before the baby rabies really set in; I was okay with Carol having the twins she really wanted, but if everyone starts having babies D:

I'm really excited for the finale of GoT, it's been a real rollercoaster of a first season, whatever happens :D

[pristineungift.livejournal.com]

I agree with a lot of this, despite making Cara pregnant in my trilogy. One of the reasons Cara refuses to tell anyone but Jennsen is that she doesn't want to be sidelined, and she's incredibly pissed when Richard finds out and tries to do that very thing. That's something I was interested in trying to explore with Cara - a pregnant woman who doesn't lose her identity, or necessarily -like- being pregnant.

That being said. >_____________> Here's hoping I'm not one of those bad baby!ficcers out there.

[brontefanatic.livejournal.com]

I always saw Cara's pregnancy as being intregal to the plot of SoB, especially given the history that she and Darken share.

IMO Bad baby!fic - pregnancy IS the plot or is just sort of there because a character (in LOTS usually Kahlan) just needs to be pregnant because well - babiesssssssssssss!!It's fic where the characters sit around and talk about babiesssssssssss for pages and pages and pages, and how cute their babiesssssss are going to be.

I'm rambling now - sorry.

[meridian_rose]

I like this definition of bad babyfic as opposed to babyfic in general :D

[meridian_rose]

Cara refuses to be sidelined - exactly what I'd hope to see. And you know how much I trust you, as a writer, to give me, as a reader, a story that will captivate me. Even when it's fluffy romance or includes babies, I will read it becaue I trust you to make it real and to keep people largely in character, and to make it an enjoyable read. You care about characterisation, and plot, and symbolism, and that means anything you write tends to be amazing.
Bad ficcers generally just do the whole 'and then they got marryed and had eight children named [other characters], the end, pls review or i wunt update no more'

[pristineungift.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for that! That is one of the nicest things anyone's ever said about my writing. I hope to keep that trust. <3

[meridian_rose]

The 'real adult', 'duty' and other tropes piss me off severely.
I would love to read a fic where Richard and Kahlan find out it's not all rainbows and unicorns to raise a child. I find it disturbing that Kahlan is supposed to breed an entire line of Confessors [and Dennee, I guess, but it's all about Kahlan and Richard's Epic Love] just to keep the peace in the Midlands.
Confessors were created by magic, and if Zedd's half the wizard he brags about being, surely he'd find a way to turn willing volunteers into Confessors. In fact, can't he improve on the Confession magic so that there's no danger of accidentally Confessing a mate?

[pristineungift.livejournal.com]

O_____O

Zedd maslkdfjasldf aslkdf Confesssorsasdfasjd Shakai'ah alskdjfasldkfjsldfk.

>_>

*creeps off somewhere*

[meridian_rose]

You're right on all counts; the writers are constantly trying to have it 'both ways' in more than one area, and the Prophecy Angst sounds right - need something to replace the Confession Angst. And I - and the rest of the Darklings - would still have been far more interested in things like Darken's new schemes, all things Cara, and Nicci's fate.

[hrhrionastar.livejournal.com]

I agree with this - my personal feelings about having kids aside, it's ridiculous to think you're not an adult until you're a parent, or that you must have children when there's overpopulation and orphans and children whose parents are abusive.

I would love a fic where Richard and Kahlan have a child and it's the worst thing to happen to them - if nothing else, I feel pretty strongly that if they had a son, Richard would never let him be killed, and that right there could lead to trouble later. Parent angst is fascinating to me ;)

[brontefanatic.livejournal.com]

I love this discussion and don't want to throw it off-track, but as I was driving home tonight, mulling over some of this in my mind, I did realize that the television baby obsession upsets me much more than all the baby!fic that I run into.

There are hundreds of fanfics out there, and I can generally avoid those I dont' want to read and find others that deal with the characters and relationships I like.

On the other hand, It's painful to get invested in a television character only to have her entire personality, by the second or third season, morph into someone I don't recognize anymore because the urge to reproduce over-rides everything else in her life.

That being said, I find books and shows that deal seriously with family relationships very compelling. The parent/child relationship, the sibling relationship, and how they develop over time, the inherent tensions involved - they fascinate me - often more so than media about romantic/sexual relationships.

"Serpent's Tooth", whatever it's merits, or lack thereof, was written because I wanted to look at the relationship between Darken and Kahlan from the viewpoint of their child, and to imagine the pressures and demands she would face as a result of the family she was born into. All the fics I read, with the exception of Vorq's "Down through the Years" and Riona's WIP "Princess Rahl" always focused on the D/K sex and angst, and I wanted to shift the focus.

So, in my long-winded rambling way, I guess I'm saying that while I am child-free myself and always will be, I am drawn to works that focus on family dynamics.

ETA: Maybe this is also why I find the character arcs of Arya and Sansa more interesting in some respects than Dany's. They come from a "traditional" loving, though patriarchal, family, and are thrust into a dangerous world when their father is killed. IDK

[hrhrionastar.livejournal.com]

That being said, I find books and shows that deal seriously with family relationships very compelling. The parent/child relationship, the sibling relationship, and how they develop over time, the inherent tensions involved - they fascinate me Me, too :D Partly because my own family is very important to me, probably.

"Serpent's Tooth", whatever it's merits, or lack thereof, was written because I wanted to look at the relationship between Darken and Kahlan from the viewpoint of their child, and to imagine the pressures and demands she would face as a result of the family she was born into. All the fics I read, with the exception of Vorq's "Down through the Years" and Riona's WIP "Princess Rahl" always focused on the D/K sex and angst, and I wanted to shift the focus. I love that you're doing this. I actually like the D/K sex and angst (Some Kind of Miracle is more about that), but like you, I'm fascinated by how their daughter might see their relationship, and who she might be as a character :D

[brontefanatic.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love the D/K sex and angst, too! It's just that it's been done by a lot of wonderful writers already, including yourself, and the whole "child torn between her parents" idea had been nagging at me for a long time.

It's so interesting to see the differences and similarities in how we write D/K and their children.

[hrhrionastar.livejournal.com]

Thank you :D

I think ideas that won't leave you alone, like the child torn between her parents thing, are the ones that make the best stories. You care about the issue, and then the reader's going to care more, too.

It's so interesting to see the differences and similarities in how we write D/K and their children. Absolutely :D

[meridian_rose]

I agree; fic is easier cast aside, but when it's canon it's impossible to completely ignore.
Family drama on the other hand, is a powerful thing to explore; the Darken/Richard dynamic is more interesting to me than the Kahlan/Richard relationship.
I hate Sansa; had she loved her family more than the idea of marrying the hateful Joffrey, and told the truth in support of Arya [when Arya was sword fighting], her wolf would be alive, Arya's wolf still with her, her marriage would have been off, the butcher's boy would still be alive; and in probability Stark wouldn't have become the King's Hand - or at least Joffrey would have been shown to be a liar and a coward, severely damaging his reputation when it came to his being King. Sansa's chosen her side and I'd be happy to see her die with the rest of the Lannisters [save Tyrion; I love Tyrion].
Arya on the other hand is amazing. She wants to use a sword rather than sew, and yet got angry at being called 'boy', still wanting to remain her gender identity. I haven't read the books so I have no idea what happens to her, but in my utopian future, she's Lady Stark, ruling Winterfell :D
The Starks are a great character set overall, with the girls, boys, the 'rightful' vs the 'bastard', their smaller numbers/riches bolstered by their pride and bravery.

[brontefanatic.livejournal.com]

Sansa - Yikes! Wanting her to die with all the Lannisters! You really do hate her. I don't know if you plan to read the books, but I will be interested to know if you feel the same after the second season (or book). IMO her story arc becomes extremely interesting - at least to me. It's important to remember that her actions are not much changed from the books, where she's only 12 years old. Yes, she lives in a daydream at first, but she pays the price.

Joffrey would have still been the king unless Ned had succeeded in convincing Robert's brothers that Jaime is his father, and nobody had any idea of what Joffrey was going to do - not even his mother.

Sorry!! Getting way off topic of your original post. I could discuss GoT/ASOIAF for hours.

[ivanolix.livejournal.com]

And for the childfree, the infertile childless, the trans-women, the asexuals and aromantics, most lesbians and many bisexuals [in terms of gender of partner chosen by writers] and single people everywhere it's a slap in the face, another reminder that they are not normal. Because every woman has to want and have a husband and a baby.

I would disagree with this. I am both lesbian and childfree, but I don't find babyfic offensive. It's a particular kind of fantasy, a platonic kink. I don't see it as trying to speak for everyone. I don't even mind if my role models (who are all childfree in canon) have babyfic stories. It's like a way to roleplay things you don't want in real life, but find fascinating on an almost scientific level. [Also, as a side note, I know asexuals who would like to adopt children.]

Unless, of course, we're talking about canon. There I'm fully in line with you. I think there's a lack of good motherhood plots, but I don't think we need more female characters defined by the "universal" desire for children. Ew, yuck, no.

Also, as someone who had a very complicated family background, I am drawn to familyfic in general as a way to work through a lot of my issues with my own history. But only if it's realistic familyfic that takes into account that pregancy, parenthood, etc., can be downright hellish experiences. At the very least full of ups and downs and complications.

[meridian_rose]

Well if babyfic was clearly labelled so I choose not to read it unless it was by an author I trusted/had the wherewithal to deal with it at that moment, I'd be happier. It's usually just filed as 'gen' or sometimes 'fluff' even when the pregnancy is the whole point of the story. But at the end of the day fic is just fic, and can be disregarded.

But canon - it's so prevalent in canon. I'd love to have more childfree models but every time I find one they have to be shown the Error Of Their Ways [Arizona, in particular]. Maybe you've found them in anime or dramas I'm not watching, because I'm lacking females who are canonically and staunchly childfree. Babylon Five's Susan Ivanova and NCIS: LA's Hetty are the only ones I can think of who have never had children and that's because they put their careers first.

And canon is out there, telling us that normal is straight monogamy, or occasionally gay monogamy, and that it has to include children. Having it happen to Amy Pond and Olivia Dunham alike these season has particularly irked me, especially because in the former's case it underscores that marriage=babies which is another fallacy.

[ivanolix.livejournal.com]

People don't label their babyfic? Or label it gen? WTF. I often enjoy babyfic because of my own inexplicable kinks, but I have to be in the mood and know it's coming. >_<

I consider Kara Thrace as my childfree model. Even when a villain tried to force her to take care of a child, she didn't suddenly change her character and become all baby friendly. After a couple episodes of that, she went back to being her old self. Another staunch childfree model is Eve Dallas of the In Death series. Both are married, too (straight marriages, but oh well).

But you're right, most of the time I just have to assume a character's childfree if they don't say they're not :-/ It's sad, what happened to Amy and Olivia. They used to be characters I deeply related to—now, it's a hell of a lot harder. *again, sigh*

[meridian_rose]

I've seen it labelled maybe once, and the summaries usually don't mention it - it's like SURPRISE BABY ATTACK. It's happened to me twice in the past two weeks which is another reason I'm a bit raw about the whole subject right now.

Kara - how could I forget about Kara :D 'In Death' - sounds like something I'd enjoy reading [although Wiki says the series will end with Eve's eventual pregnancy].

See, when you said you liked baby plotlines I thought you'd be thrilled about Amy. I wouldn't have minded so much if it happened straight away. I appreciate how so much of the baby storyline has been circumvented, though, and it seems we're setting up for a major time paradox storyline where what the Doctor does next causes the events of A Good Man Goes To War. Could be interesting.

[ivanolix.livejournal.com]

Yeah I'd be raw about it too. Most stories I've seen mention in the summary something about pregnancy or parenthood.

In Death is pretty awesome, although really? Ugh. I've read the first twenty books or so, and Eve's been staunchly anti-children and not judged for it. I'm more than a little annoyed that this may change at some point.

Well, I have a love/hate relationship with baby plotlines. I like the fantasy of them, as long as they don't permanently impact the reality of characters I identify with. Because I do NOT want babies to impact the reality of my life. So if baby plotlines happen in canon to characters like Kahlan, who I enjoy but do not identify with, it's not as big of a deal. I can engage in the fantasy of it, though I would still be bothered by yet another woman being thrust into the motherhood role. (At least in the case of Kahlan, she says she wants babies, and as a feminist I think she should be able to make that choice.)

But with Amy, I felt like she was a childfree person. I identified with her on a variety of things, but that was an aspect. So when the baby plotline happened to her, it threw me for a loop. It bothered me.

[meridian_rose]

'At least in the case of Kahlan, she says she wants babies'; exactly, it's in character for her and as long as there is some reality to it and not just Hallmark moments it doesn't bother me the way it does with other characters/fandoms. I'm far more emotionally invested with Cara anyway :D

I love that whenever we seem to be at opposite ends of something [like with the 'Torn' storyline] after we discuss it some more, we end up finding more common ground than differences.

[ivanolix.livejournal.com]

I'm far more emotionally invested with Cara anyway :D

Indeed! Oh you should have seen my rage when spoilers about Eternity first came out (the ones about the baby). Thankfully it was more red herring than plotline.

And yes, I find that a good discussion often does that. :)

[brontefanatic.livejournal.com]

So interesting! Because I found the Darken/Cara son twist fascinating, and I usually avoid baby plotlines. It just gave such a twist to their past relationship and I wanted to know more about it.

I always assume that the fact of the child's birth is canon despite the spell of undoing - just that now only Darken and Cara know about it. That way in fanfic it's possible to have Cara react to the fact/memory an any number of ways, or, it one chooses, not at all.

[hrhrionastar.livejournal.com]

I think I'd better start by saying that I love babies, and I love babyfic, at least when done well. (But I might say that about anything - even tropes and storylines I don't like can charm me, if they're written well enough.)

For me, though, one of the most interesting things is how the characters deal with becoming parents. As you said, realistically kids are a lot of hard work, and too often all we see are the Hallmark moments. Plus, I think a character who didn't plan to get pregnant trying to decide whether or not to have an abortion, for example, could be a really interesting starting point for a story.

I haven't seen enough of a lot of the shows you mentioned to know much about their baby plots, but I think these issues are one reason so many people hate the Harry Potter epilogue. Basically, nineteen years after the Epic Battle, Our Heroes have children who are little carbon copies of their parents or grandparents, and there's no mention of the rest of their lives - careers, other relationships, nothing. Even Draco Malfoy has a son who looks just like him, thereby neglecting a perfect opportunity to change the Malfoy family - he could've had a daughter, or no children, or lots like the Weasleys - something unexpected, anyway.

I love when the kids have personalities of their own, too - people are shaped by their parents, whether their presence or their absence, and I love exploring what psychological scars Our Heroes might've left on their children ;)

About Buffy - her being in love with Angel gets in the way of her Calling, but her relationship with Spike has actually helped her fight evil. (As she was never actually in love with Riley, I won't include him - I'm very shippy when it comes to Buffy, in a way I'm not with other of my fandoms.)

I guess in LotS, I feel like there's some excuse for Kahlan being baby obsessed, since she's the last Confessor, and unless she decides Confessors aren't important after all (going against her entire life's experience) she has to have children. Richard really wants a family. It is annoying when he tells three days pregnant Kahlan to stay home because of the Danger, but I'd like to think if it weren't for Orden, she'd insist on coming along to protect him and that would be that. The whole plotline with Cara's son is difficult - some people say she doesn't care about the boy at all, but I just can't see that. Whether she wanted to be a mother or not, now she is, and that has an effect on her character that the writers do underestimate, I think.

I write lots of family/babyfic - I hope I don't fall into bad babyficcing!

[brontefanatic.livejournal.com]

You don't!!!!

You write about families and the different ways they deal with each other, with their parents, with their childre, with their friends, and how their familial roles influence the other parts of their live. That's what I'm most interested in TBH.

We may not all become parents, or want to become parents, but most of us have been part of a family at one time or another.

Poor Riley! He doesn't get much love from anyone. He was nice but he bored me to tears. (Kind of like Leo IMO)

Spuffy forever, although Angel had his moments.

[hrhrionastar.livejournal.com]

You write about families and the different ways they deal with each other, with their parents, with their children, with their friends, and how their familial roles influence the other parts of their lives. Thank you - that's what interests me, too, and I try :D

We may not all become parents, or want to become parents, but most of us have been part of a family at one time or another. Exactly :D


Poor Riley! He doesn't get much love from anyone. He was nice but he bored me to tears. (Kind of like Leo IMO)

Spuffy forever, although Angel had his moments. I agree with all of this! Riley is like Leo - a boring, forgettable character paired with someone I really like. Although I think Riley isn't really that nice - there are moments, when he's fighting with Buffy, where I get the feeling he would start being abusive if she weren't super strong. And he's so sexist - he even admits to thinking women are weaker than men and need to be protected, an especially ridiculous thing to say to Buffy.

I like Angel, though - I ship Angel/Cordelia most, I think, at least until they ruined his show in season 4. And Spuffy forever :D

(Whoops, way off topic...)

[meridian_rose]

Been a while since I watched Riley episodes so I'd forgotten about his sexist behaviour - probably shown as what Normal Men think anyway, so that's alright then /sarcasm.

Yes, Riley had a whole season whereas Leo only had a couple of episodes for character development, so it's telling that three of us here think that Riley was overall a boring character.

[hrhrionastar.livejournal.com]

Been a while since I watched Riley episodes so I'd forgotten about his sexist behaviour - probably shown as what Normal Men think anyway, so that's alright then /sarcasm. I think Buffy is actually pretty good about showing us that not all Normal Men are like Riley - for one thing, Xander doesn't have any magic but he's not portrayed as having a problem with Buffy being the Action Girl.

I really don't like Riley - the main thing that reconciles me to his presence on the show is the way he advances the Spuffy relationship ;D

[meridian_rose]

LOL, yes. Riley, nice but dull - and poor Leo too. Leo didn't really get chance to develop as a character either, while Riley had a whole season.

What's interesting is an episode where Successful Lawyer, Military Officer, Hard-nosed Cop or whoever the major focus of the show is, goes home and gets embroiled in Family Drama - because their parents and siblings still treat them like they are a child, because the same dynamics are often at play. Excellent when played for laughs; also lots of opportunity for drama when we meet the family and look at how everyone relates to each other.

[hrhrionastar.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I'm just as happy Leo wasn't in more episodes - I really find him so uninteresting. And it's actually kind of depressing that, in the Unbroken AU, he and Cara get together, only to be interrupted by Zedd, who basically tells us that Fate ships Cara/Leo, but too bad, he's going back to a world where Leo's dead anyway. If Leo's supposed to be Cara's soulmate, that's a pretty depressing message (not that I consider him that way).

because their parents and siblings still treat them like they are a child, because the same dynamics are often at play. I adore this, because I think it's something that rings true to life - families get into certain patterns, and those patterns get repeated. Plus, life has both humor and drama, so it's an excellent plot that way :D

[meridian_rose]

The vomit inducing epilogue that I saw referred to as like Bad Fic. Made me rage. Why must people write epilogues anyway? Just let us envision the interesting futures for the characters. Happens in romance novels too often, which is why if I see any romantic type novel I might want to read I read the back first. Baby epilogue means I put it back on the shelf.

Riley is the one I was most thinking of in terms of Buffy actually :D She seemed very distracted - lots of stuff going on in her life at that point already - and I felt she was trying to make Riley more of a focus than her Slaying or her studies. Angel was a constant help vs hinderance to Buffy, depending on the season, but with Spike I think she was more experienced and determined to keep in control. I didn't see her as being dreamy-eyed over Spike in a way she was over Angel and to a lesser extent Riley.

The Confessor storyline is more disturbing the more I think about it; Buffy fell victim to a roll of the universal dice and had destiny thrust upon her, but Confessors have children for the primary purpose of making more Confessors who have no choice about this biological destiny [how short sighted and cruel Kahlan was to Annabel is a taste of what Confessdom is like]. Which is why I was thinking about alternatives below [like the spell that at least let all the Potentials become Slayers] whereby volunteers could choose to be Confessors.

If I wasn't loving what you wrote, if it wasn't handled sensitively, I wouldn't have kept reading. I love how you've given Nila and Nicholas distinct personalities, and how we switch viewpoints each chapter so we can see the family drama from all angles :D

[hrhrionastar.livejournal.com]

I think the reason to write an epilogue is to be firm about not writing a sequel. Although supposedly JKR said if she ever did keep writing about Harry, she might do Harry Potter and the Midlife Crisis, which I think could be really interesting - he and Ginny could get divorced, for one thing (I hate Harry/Ginny as a ship - R/K is pretty Meant To Be, Epic Love, etc, but Harry/Ginny is even worse - he's the Hero, and she's like his reward. Bleh).

You're right about Riley - always getting in Buffy's way ;) Of course, in season 4 he's connected to the evil, so obsessing over him is like her Slayer homework, in a way. And Angel - either very supportive or very not supportive.

I didn't see her as being dreamy-eyed over Spike in a way she was over Angel and to a lesser extent Riley. One of the many reasons I ship Spuffy :D Their relationship feels more realistic emotionally. (I could on about them forever, though :D)

The Confessor storyline is more disturbing the more I think about it; Buffy fell victim to a roll of the universal dice and had destiny thrust upon her, but Confessors have children for the primary purpose of making more Confessors who have no choice about this biological destiny [how short sighted and cruel Kahlan was to Annabel is a taste of what Confessdom is like]. Which is why I was thinking about alternatives below [like the spell that at least let all the Potentials become Slayers] whereby volunteers could choose to be Confessors. You're right - Kahlan's cruelty to Annabel almost made me feel sorry for her (but I hate Annabel, so not quite). It would be interesting if Zedd could find a way to create new Confessors. I think also that the most important thing might be finding a way to undo Confession without killing anyone - for those tricky accidents where the person is innocent ;)

If I wasn't loving what you wrote, if it wasn't handled sensitively, I wouldn't have kept reading. I love how you've given Nila and Nicholas distinct personalities, and how we switch viewpoints each chapter so we can see the family drama from all angles :D Yay! I'm glad to hear it :D

[ivanolix.livejournal.com]

You make a really good point here. I'm much more interested in how having children changes the dynamics of characters I love (because frankly, I love ANYTHING that creates interesting dynamics) than them having children themselves. And family politics are always fascinating, whether children are babies or not.

Plus, I think a character who didn't plan to get pregnant trying to decide whether or not to have an abortion, for example, could be a really interesting starting point for a story.

I actually have WIP where Cara accidentally gets pregnant and tries to abort, but nothing she tries seems to work. And basically how that messes up her life, and no she doesn't just magically start having baby-loving rainbows all around. It wouldn't be an utter tragedy, but it wouldn't be happy babyfic either.

[meridian_rose]

'she doesn't just magically start having baby-loving rainbows' which is why it won't be bad babyfic, and I'll read it when I have the right frame of mind to tackle it :D I don't know why the LotS fandom is quite so awesome, but the quality of writing is higher than most. I've found bad fic of all descriptions in fandoms like Buffy but hardly ever in LotS [though I admit I only read R/K if it looks like there's something more interesting going on beyond Epic Love anyway, and I have a feeling that's where bad fic would hang out]

[ivanolix.livejournal.com]

Oh there's a fair amount of badfic, but it's not as bad as it could be (and is in other fandoms) by any stretch. Which I'm very grateful for.

[brontefanatic.livejournal.com]

I love imagining Darken as a parent - because if he were involved at all in his child's life, I think it would change him in some ways - especially as time passed. Yet balancing that while still trying to keep his "Darkeness" is hard because you have to project years into the future.

Your Cara WIP sounds very interesting!

[hrhrionastar.livejournal.com]

I agree, Darken as a parent is fascinating - and I think you manage keeping him in character very well in Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth :D

[ivanolix.livejournal.com]

I wholeheartedly agree. Darken is so guarded, it's hard to find things that will affect him—but children would definitely make him vulnerable to change IMO

[hrhrionastar.livejournal.com]

And family politics are always fascinating, whether children are babies or not. Exactly :D

Ooh, your WIP sounds fascinating! The fact that nothing Cara tries works to abort the baby makes me think it's one of those Powerfully Magical children. Can't wait :D