meridian_rose | Legend of the Seeker: Discussion; what about the D'Harans?

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Legend of the Seeker: Discussion; what about the D'Harans?

There's two major driving points behind this; the first is

hrhrionastar's fic Rescue.

I fell in love with it when it was up for voting and was impatient to see who wrote it; all of the entries were fantastic, but what stood out for me in this fic was the character of Ashgar. I had forgotten he was a canon character. In fact the only D'Haran guard/Dragon Corps beyond the Generals Nass and Egremont that I could recall was Captain Ensor who was a well-rounded character.

The other was a challenge at

legendland where the world should be mirrored in some way. Before the rules were relaxed, people were expressing concerns about male Mord'Sith and female Corps – that it made no sense for women to be armed guards since they are weaker. Yet the D'Haran guards are, for the most part, weak and incompetent. One Mord'Sith is worth two Quads of male guards.

Some of this is the fault of the writers, using the guards and the Sisters of the Dark as redshirts, cannon fodder for the heroes to overcome. But until these two things made me think about it, I was just as guilty of failing to make the guards actual characters, as seeing them as people when I wrote them at all. This contrasts with the 'Robin Hood' fandom, where the BBC production used always incompetent castle guards as the fall guys to the Sheriff's disappointment. However several writers, myself included, have indulged in short fic that's sometimes crack and plays on the dim-wittedness of the guards, but also drama and angst that creates real characters who just happen to be guards.

So, are the Corps just redshirts? Do you try to sympathise with them? Should we try and include more about them sometimes? Are they incompetent or is the Seeker just that good? How do they feel about being inferior in skill and in Rahl's favour when compared to the Mord'Sith?

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I'm certainly guilty of making the guards red shirts in my fics, but I like to think that even in stories not focused on them, they still have whole lives and motivations and opinions of their own - or what's the point?

The problem with Richard and particularly Kahlan's attitude toward not only the D'Harans and the Sisters of the Dark but also the people of the Midlands they're supposedly protecting is that they never ask what those people want or think. Kahlan is the Mother Confessor, which means (as far as I understand it) that she is the rightful ruler of the Midlands, both in terms of actual power and also moral superiority. How can she be defending the People, without listening to the individuals?

Or, to use a quote from Lois McMaster Bujold, "How can she be answerable to all, and yet not to each?"

And it's the same with Darken and the D'Haran soldiers. How much does he ever think about each individual one? He's so paranoid I'd think he must give their motivations and opinions some thought. In the very beginning of the show, Kahlan says Darken has thousands of soldiers and wizards, etc, loyal to him, which suggests to me that he can't command their respect only with dark magic. They would have revolted before the Seeker ever appeared.

So I think the D'Haran soldiers are villified as part of pro-Midlands propaganda, at least somewhat.

The Sisters of the Dark are different, though, since they're working to destroy all life and must therefore be more than usually evil or insane...or so it seems to me.

Are they incompetent or is the Seeker just that good? A little of both - and yet, I think we are supposed to think the Seeker is just that good. After all, he fights with the strength and skill of all the previous Seekers - and many, many times he escapes certain death at the hands of the D'Harans only because of some timely Wizard's Fire from Zedd.

I do wonder about the relationship between the soldiers and the Mord'Sith. It would be easy to resent the Mord'Sith's possession of Lord Rahl's favor and their success rate - or would the average D'Haran soldier be grateful not to attract Lord Rahl's personal attention?

Ooh, long comment is long...

Ooh, discussion! :D

I don't think the writers given much thought to the guards as people. They needed lots of action and fights and other epicness so guards were just there. Convenient.
I don't even remember any D'Haran characters other than Egremont and Nass... o_O Maybe if I try reeeaaally hard I can think of someone. O_o

BTW it constantly astounded me how Richard and co could kill people so easily and never ever stop to feel even slightly bad about it.

We never get to see D'Harans POV on the war and Richard's 'heroic deeds' (or am I just forgetting something?) which is sad. It would have put things into perspective. I mean Richard and his cause do have flaws why couldn't they just admit it?

Oh noes, I'm indulging into my favorite Richard rant again. *shuts up now*

Richard freaks out about killing people in the first episode, but then Ranssyn Fane murders his father and his principles are naturally eclipsed by his desire for revenge...

Still, it doesn't ever seem to occur to him that not all the D'Haran soldiers are equally evil, at least until he meets Captain Ensor. Who is from Deception, I think.

Richard's speech in Baneling about how, yes, dead people now come back and try to kill you again, but no, that doesn't mean we'll stop killing people in the first place, kind of weirded me out...I mean, the inspiring speech is, 'yes, it's okay to kill people'? Not quite in the heroic mold, somehow.

In the very beginning of the show, Kahlan says Darken has thousands of soldiers and wizards, etc, loyal to him, which suggests to me that he can't command their respect only with dark magic. They would have revolted before the Seeker ever appeared.
Oh, that is such a great point! :D

In the episode with Renn (don't remember which was that) when D'Haran captain failed to get the Listener he said "I'll face Lord Rahl's wrath" which implies loyalty, respect, responsibility, courage, and honor.
Also "the only thing Lord Rahl hates more than bad news is bad news being kept from him".
It kinda made me think that Darken doesn't terrorize his subjects into mindless submission. Because no way a mindless slave would have said such a thing.

In the episode with Renn (don't remember which was that) when D'Haran captain failed to get the Listener he said "I'll face Lord Rahl's wrath" which implies loyalty, respect, responsibility, courage, and honor.
Also "the only thing Lord Rahl hates more than bad news is bad news being kept from him". Yes - that's actually Captain Ashgar, who I used for my drabble. I really liked how brave he was about facing Lord Rahl's wrath, and thereby protecting his men, and also it suggested he'd met Lord Rahl before, obviously not on an equal footing, but enough to know Darken would hate having bad news kept from him...

It kinda made me think that Darken doesn't terrorize his subjects into mindless submission. Because no way a mindless slave would have said such a thing. Agreed. I reread Pris's Blood Trilogy recently, and she had a great moment where (Mord'Sith) Haden was thinking how she owed her loyalty to the House of Rahl but in the privacy of her own head she could think of them as she liked, as contrasted with Confession.

In the episode with Annabelle Richard kills confessed woodcutters this always makes me go like O_O WTF?

And all of this happens after Darken tells him that killing people helps the Keeper. C'mon! If a 'monster' and 'tyrant' like Darken Rahl tells you you overdoing it maybe it's a sign to start worrying?

that's actually Captain Ashgar, who I used for my drabble.
Oh, I didn't recognize him... O_O
Now I love your drabble even MORE!! :D

Haden was thinking how she owed her loyalty to the House of Rahl but in the privacy of her own head she could think of them as she liked, as contrasted with Confession.
Yes, I remember that part. It was awesome!
Seriously, Confession is a pretty scary and nasty thing. Maybe D'Hara was doing Midlands a favor by getting them rid of Confessors? Weren't Confessors tyrants just like Darken or Queen Milena?

What a great topic!

I'll have more to say later as this is a subject dear to my heart and which I have tried to address in some of my fics. In Serpent's Tooth, both Jonathan Egremont and Margaret are loyal D'Harans who I tried to flesh out as three dimensional and sympathetic characters, because I didn't like the way the D'Harans, especially the men, were little more than cannon fodder.

The only D'Harans who are developed in any respect as characters are the ones who see the light and swear loyalty to Richard or those confessed by Kahlan (who almost inevitably die).

General Egremont is treated somewhat differently and given a little more respect and individuality by the writers, although we never find out if he has a family, etc. Trimrack is also an exception, although of course he's a "good" D'Haran who revived Panis and was the first to swear loyalty to Richard after Darken's death.

With regard to the soldiers, there's also confusion for me because of the distinctions - we hear about the Dragon Corp which seem to be the Elite of the Elite, and then we hear about the Third Battalion, who seem to be loyal to Darken Rahl even after his death.

I can't imagine that there wouldn't be enormous tension between the DC, the Third Battalion and the Mord'Sith. I'm sure the men resent the special status and favor the MS hold with Darken Rahl, and that the MS look about the men with more than a little contempt. Denna treats them with complete contempt and orders them about without hesitation, and when Kahlan is impersonating a MS, she does also - and the men are totally unsurprised by this.

It would be interesting to see that tension/rivalry be the centerpeice of a fic someday.

(Just a rather funny side-note: In their Puppeteer commentary on the first season DVDs, Craig Parker and Bruce Spence laugh about how the same actors playing D'Haran soldiers get killed one week, return to get killed all over again 2 or 3 episodes later, and nobody ever notices because they are all so annonomous and interchangeable).

Edited 2011-11-03 16:03 (UTC)

The Sisters clearly have had more choice in their decision and are absolutely working with the Keeper; I threw them in as another redshirt example - supposedly they're powerful and innumerable but get killed off frequently :D

Darken probably concerns himself with the officers more than the soldiers, the higher the rank, the more he's found them trustworthy. But yes, their loyalty suggests the rewards outweigh any risk to them. They're not slaves, like the Confessed. You're right about their loyalty.

I sort of want to write about Mord'Sith and officers now; although I'm not familiar with bookverse, I know Cara does find a mate amongst the Corp.

Yes, that scene was a bit WTF. They were attacking Richard, but if he's so skilled, couldn't he have incapacitated them without killing them?

Ensor, from Deception, is the only other officer to be given much attention in the show and the only time we get a glimpse of D'Haran society.

I'm glad you approve of the discussion and will have more thoughts later :D

Ensor is the only other D'Haran to be given any real characterisation, I think.

I get confused by the Dragon Corps and the army in general and I can't recall off the top of my head anything about the Third Battalion so clearly I wasn't paying attention.

There may be fic later if I can wrap my head around it; comparing and contrasting some of ways various officers and MS might interact.

LOL, I certainly never noticed :D Poor interchangeable soldiers :D

Now hosting over at the Palace too, if you want to copy-pasta your thoughts there.

I have a very hard time writing Seeker fic because I HATE the institution of Confessors. I find it a vile concept and worse than anything the so called villains do. I know Kahlan takes her powers seriously but a hereditary position will always breed tyrants. Personally I think the world would be better off without them. Some kinds of magic shouldn't exist (and don't get me going on the whole taking a mate aspect...)

I love Kahlan...but not what she stands for

a hereditary position will always breed tyrants I hadn't really thought about that, but I suppose it's true that when a person has such power because of their genetics rather any true skills, morals, or other suitability for the position, it's bound to happen at some point.

I think that Kahlan herself does take her responsibilities seriously, but in general I agree - the institution of Confessors is full of really ugly things, even without considering taking a mate and the whole male Confessor thing.

On the other hand, in a world with magic some of that entitlement stuff seems inevitable. If Richard tried to organize a democracy, for example, I don't think it would work...somehow having people with extra powers seems to force a somewhat tyrannical system.

Heh I'm sort of an anti-magic person for that very reason...why do I like fantasy? ;)

The Sisters of the Dark kill one another just as much if not more than Our Heroes kill them, though. Actually I wonder about their motivations, too - for Nicci it's about revenge on a world, and a Creator, that abandoned her when she needed help...for some of them it's surely about whatever illusion of power they think they can get from the Keeper.

the higher the rank, the more he's found them trustworthy. That makes sense :)

although I'm not familiar with bookverse, I know Cara does find a mate amongst the Corp. Yes - Benjamin Meiffert. Although I really don't know more than his name. I glanced at the wedding scene once, though, and it involved either Nicci or some of the Mord'Sith, I forget which now, wearing a pink bow - which struck me as ridiculous and maybe offensive. (Bleh, Terry Goodkind...)

I sort of want to write about Mord'Sith and officers now Yay! It's a fascinating topic :D

If a 'monster' and 'tyrant' like Darken Rahl tells you you overdoing it maybe it's a sign to start worrying? Mmm, but maybe Darken's just saying that to mess with Richard's head...and yet, most of the time when Darken points out Richard or anyone's hypocrisy, he doesn't have to lie; Our Heroes aren't perfect, after all.

Good point about the Confessed woodcutters - they later take away Annabelle's powers, so presumably those people could have recovered just like Flynn and Richard.

I really love how much thought you give to this subject - Margaret and Jonathon are both such great characters :D

The only D'Harans who are developed in any respect as characters are the ones who see the light and swear loyalty to Richard or those confessed by Kahlan (who almost inevitably die). Yes - and then Richard and Kahlan accidentally killed that guy in Conversion who was a childhood friend of Darken's and was plotting to assassinate him, and his uncle was all, 'you've just killed the one person who might actually have got close enough to kill Darken Rahl' instead of 'you murdered my nephew, why would I help you?'

(And that's even without the whole creepiness factor of the childhood-friend-assassin...)

In Unbroken, Orden!Richard uses the Third Battalion as his personal guard...in his place I think I would have tried to gain the loyalty of some of the other soldiers, who might respect Richard as a Rahl, and who might be happy the Mord'Sith are all Ordenified - although again, Richard then trusts them with everything important. I know he doesn't expect to lose Orden, but that behavior seems like tempting fate to me.

I think you're right about the tensions between the Mord'Sith, the Third Battalion and the Dragon Corps - the whole thing is so beautifully complicated ;)

I certainly never noticed the D'Haran soldiers getting killed, and coming back to get killed again! That's sort of sad, really.

(reply from suspended user)

The reasons for Darken continuing it are never explained beyond, "la la la evil la la something la oh we need a plot point la la er, something something." Exactly. I think it's ambiguous as to how much Darken is a tryant if you're a D'Haran compared to if you're under the auspices of the Confessors - who have declared themselves to be his enemies, thus bringing his wrath upon them.

(reply from suspended user)

I don't disagree with anything here :D
Richard as practically the lone hero just doesn't add up without Orden or Confession keeping most people docile and the Resistance is generally incompetent and disorganised, a negligible threat to Rahl. And yes, maybe they realised how sympathetic they'd made Darken by making him less of a caricature and more of a person, so they had to underscore BUT LOOK HE KILLS KITTENS just to remind us we're not really supposed to side with him. Even though he and Richard are two sides of the same coin.

(reply from suspended user)

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Legend of the Seeker: Discussion; what about the D'Harans?

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